Betty Fleck

Personal narrative of Betty Fleck
From: Betty Fleck (bf)
Medium: Audio tape
Date: Wednesday, April 28, 1999
Place: Home of Betty Fleck, 905 Jeffras Ave. Marion, Indiana 46952
Collected by: Phil Dodyk (pd)

00:00 bf: My name is Betty Holland Fleck

pd: Do I have permission to interview you?

bf: Yes.

pd: Do I have your permission to submit this interview to Marion High School?

bf: Yes.

pd: Do I have your permission to submit this interview to the Marion Public Library?

bf: Yes

pd: The interview may begin.

00:21 bf: My name is Betty Holland Fleck and uhh my parents, my father was a merchant, my mother was a homemaker, uhh, I was a home maker, before I was married I was graduated from Indiana University in 1941 went on to Methodist Hospital in Indianapolis where I spent one year at all practical training to become a medical technician and then I became a certified medical technician and uh this was in 1942 after the war had started and then I worked from 1942 to 1948, when I was married, uhhm, first, in a hospital as a medical technician and then in a general motors plant in Anderson Indiana, in a chemistry lab, I had majored in chemistry I married Henry Fleck who was born and raised in Marion, Indiana and uh he was a lawyer and then after the war, uhh, went into his parents business where he used his law but also helped run the business.

01:46 Umm Working conditions after Pearl Harbor were very different from before because many women started working to take the places of their husbands in the factories and so forth like that and uhh so working conditions of the and jobs were plentiful and everybody thought only about their husbands, and sons, and brothers, who were in the service and that went on until the war was over in 1945. And then the women stopped, a lot of them stopped working and the men came home and went back to work.

02:28 Uhh family traditions on weekends as I was growing up were really different from what they are now because family, uhh there were a lot more family traditions that were taking place then there are today where most of the people had moved away from their parents. And as I , is this okay?

pd: yes

       	bf: As I grew up, uhh everything revolved around my family.  I was an only child but I did have aunts and uncles and cousins and they were very important to me and we would get together most weekends.  Uhh some of my relatives, I was living, after I was 9 years old I was living in, in, or 9 or 10, I was living in Anderson 30 miles from Marion and many weekends we would come to Marion and many times they would come to Anderson and we would have picnics and just enjoy each other all weekend and uhhm so uhh it was very, it was very good and I, I really,  I had a lot of friends but my family came first.

03:33 Uhhm, In Marion, In Anderon where I really grew up, uhhm, there didn’t seem to me to be a lot of community discrimination as far as the Jewish people were concerned, uhhm but there weren’t very many Jewish people, very few, so I had, in fact out of a high school of, class of 425, something like that, there was one Jewish boy and one Jewish girl. That was, was me, that was I, but when I moved to Marion, after I was married, uhhm I wouldn’t say I met discrimination. I never have felt discrimination too much except that there were definitely neighborhoods that didn’t want Jewish people uhh and there weren’t any Jewish members at the Country Club and there really weren’t many Jewish members of any of the social clubs at that time, it’s very different now. We all seemed after the war when all of the fellas came back and got married and wanted to build homes we all seemed to congrete in, congregate in one area of Marion because we really wanted and a lot of times they would refuse to sell you any ground or any homes in some of the few suburbs that there were, there are a lot more now, so we all ended up living on Euclid Ave. and Jeffras Ave. uhh and built very lovely homes and it was a very lovely area. We were all together… (phone rings) All of our social life, practically all of it was with our Jewish friends. We were in all, included in all of the service organizations and groups and held office in most of the organizations uhh but in the social, as I said, we were not in those.

05:45 bf: Let’s see then so shall I go on into Meshingomeshia country club and social events or things like that? Is it [the tape recorder] on?

pd: Yeah.

bf: Oh okay. Uhhm there were no [Jewish] members in Meshingomeshia country club and uhh some of the people resented it very much. The Anti Defamation League or ADL as it, as its called, was called in to talk to some of the people In Marion concerning the fact that they did not take any members and they agreed to take some so it was over a period of a year or two that each month another family would be asked to come in and uhhm most of our friends went in and we were one of the last because my husband, really wasn’t anxious to go in but I finally uhhm convinced him that it was probably the best thing to do and uhh we enjoyed it very much. Everyone was very nice to us once they had accepted us and we tried to forget what had been before. Uhhm, for this reason we started uhh, becoming more socially integrated with the uhh Christian community and uhhm so had started you know attending more things and being asked to more things and so there was a back and forth friendship but I think is for the best in the long run. Uhhm, Turn it off. I wanted to ask you something.

07:27 bf: Uhhm, from the time I was probably around 10 years old I would come to visit my friends in Marion and in those days uhh, you could go back and forth on the inner urban from the various towns in uhh this, in the, in most of Indiana and uhh I could get on a, a train in Marion to, or in Anderson to go to Marion and then back although many times my parents would come over and I would return with them. It was, it was kind of fun and you could also go to, go on to Indianapolis from Marion to Anderson to Indianapolis. Uhh (clears throat), but just like it is now, most of our transportation was by automobile and they didn’t have uhh they didn’t have uhh 37, road 37 so to go to Indianapolis you had to go through uhh Anderson and uhhm when I went to Indiana University you had to go from Marion to Anderson to Indianapolis to Bloomington and so uhh it was about 90 miles from Anderson to Bloomington and I was very homesick and it was a very kind of uhhm a lot of turns and everything in the road between Indianapolis and Bloomington and I was so homesick that I’d always get very nautious on the way down to Bloomington but going home back I never was when I went from Bloomington to Anderson it was different. But I got used to that, too, and I didn’t have th- any of th- any of the homesickness after my first semester, at school, and I was convinced to stay for the first semester, by then I was fine. Uhhm, so, we also would drive to Cincinnati, Chicago, and uhhm, so the roads were good; not as good as they are now, but they were, they were fine. My first airplane ride was not until I was past the teens, I was in my twenties when I finally convinced my self to get on a plane, I was really frightened but after I flew awhile, uhhm. First flight I ever had was the worst and I got, we caught in a at a large storm and uhh uhh I it was hard for me to even stay on the uhh on the plane. Once it came down in Washington D.C. on my way to Newark, New Jersey. But when I got to Newark, I made the reservation to return home immediately. I was afraid if I didn’t, I, I would back out. But uhhh as I continued through life I, I done a lot of flying and so far so good.

10:23 bf: In the forties, we had a large Jewish community in Marion and then actually after the war was over when we, when I was married, and I wasn’t married until 1948, but at that time we had a large Jewish community and supposedly the best small Jewish community in the state of Indiana. We had a lot of fun and a lot of socializing and everything. Uhhm We had sixty children when I, when my children, or our children started to religious school we had sixty children in our religious school, and they all loved it. We had very good student rabbis and uhhm, and mostly the parents taught, but it was a, it was very good. And uhhm a lot of people took vacations. The young people would take their children and my children I’m sure always felt denied because we could never go on vacation on holidays because that’s when our business- uhh it, we had a, a, a lady’s ready to wear store which was started by my husband’s grandparents and uhh it was um it was one of the leading stores in town and naturally, at, between Thanksgiving and Christmas was one of the big times so we never got to go away at Christmas vacation and then the next one was Spring vacation; that was always at Easter and again, our business was very very busy so we never got to go then. But we would always try to take them some place during the summer and we would go on buying trips uhh, to New York so we were lucky and we got to see a lot of Broadway shows and, and it was really great, but the chldren didn’t get too much however, the children really didn’t see much of the forties. They came along at the very end, uhh, our first one. Uhh but our Temple was very active and very active in the forties and uhh Benai Brith; that was the men’s organization and it was very very active. It was of the most active Benai Brith in the state. My husband, and my father-in-law, and my father were all very active in Benai Brith and my parents, my mother started the sisterhood in Anderson, when we moved there. My father started, was one of the ones who started Benai Brith in Anderson and likewise in Marion, my mother in law and father in law were very active. So, my mother in law was one of the organizers of the sisterhood, in Marion, and my father in law, of Benai Brith, and my father in law was state president of Benai Brith. That was probably in the thirties and my husband was state president, Henry, uhh, of a Benai Brith uhhm. That was probably in the fifties. So, they were, they were very active in it, and we were also very active in all of the Temple biennials- we went with uhh other couples here in Marion, a couple of other couples, Ann and Julien Sector went with us a lot and Nann and Frank Maidenberg. And uhh we would go to all the biennials so we went all over the United States to biennials there would, every two years they would have, uhhm, national meetings of both sisterhood and Temple and let’s see we went to, well we went to Miami twice, I remember, we went to Chicago once or twice, we went to New York, we went to Washington D.C, San Francisco, that I can think of right off hand and they were wonderful meetings and uhh, we would hear top speakers in the country and, and, it, it was really exciting and top Rabbis throughout the United States. So, uhhm, that was very, very exciting and very uhh educational too uhhm. We enjoyed the life very much that we had and in the forties it was exceptionally good because that’s when we got married and it was very exciting.

14:36 bf: Uhh recreation around Marion uhh it was mostly movies, theatre, uhh, lots, played a lot of cards, the men played bridge and the women played mahjong, mostly mahjong at the beginning and then went into canasta, and bridge. And uhhm, oh we had a lot of parties for the Temple. We’d have a New Year’s Eve party every year that was really great and the whole community would come. We had a lot of dinners at the Temple and uhhm well, just… Schools were, were good in Marion, uhhm even though Marion was small, when our kids went to college, they all held their own and they all did very well and they’re still doing that. So, uhhm, I’ve always felt, and in Anderson also, where I grew up, uhhm, very good, uhh, same thing, the kids would go on to college and would always be top students. Uhh so that . . . (side of tape ends) 15:00

15:00 bf: Uhhm, Jewish war veterans, uhh, most of the uhh single fellas went to the service when the war started in 42, the end of 41, and uhhm, two young men uhhm did not come back uhh Bob Glogus, who was killed in Europe, and uhhm Bob Simons, and they were both, well Bob Simons especially was very young probably 19 or 20 at the most and he was killed in, in Europe in the battle of Bulge, and Bob Glogas was in the Air Corp. I think and I think that, I, I’m not really positive, I think he was killed in a plane crash, but I’m not, I’m not a hundred percent sure. Uhhm during the war, Benai Brith decided to put out a bulletin that they sent to all of the uhh young fellas in the service and they really looked forward to that. Milt Maidenberg seemed to head it up I think and we have copies of most of the bulletins, they were wonderful. And the girls, the young women, would help uhhm, on it, and it, it, they were really good bulletins and good and I, like I said, I think uhh Irma has a lot of them and I’ve got a lot of them, and uhh maybe some of the others, I don’t know. Uhhm, They all left and when they came back, naturally, it was, some of the, some of, a few of the fellas were married, at the time, I know Julien and Ann Sector were married and I don’t know some of the others I can’t remember right now, but most of the fellas were single, so when they came back, then, they all started getting married and that was, that was great for the community too. And, they had a lot of out vet, oh, from the time, from the time they came back until they, most of them are gone now, uhhm, they talked a lot about their experiences in the service. And uhhm, they were all, you know all, did, did very well, had a lot of interesting experiences and uhh it was, it was hard when they weren’t here because there were so many of them gone, it was a small community, but as I said, when they came back, the community then started having a lot more women, having a lot of children and, and got back to normal, and a lot of them came home and went into their father’s businesses because in those days, uhhm, the factories, any of those big corporations, were not hiring Jewish people, so we didn’t have, I mean most of, most of our people were people who uhh were born and raised in Marion and it was, it, that kept us very close too. Then, as time went on, of course, they started and all of that opened up. Now we get people who come in, and uhh, most of our kids left, as they grew up, and wanted to go other places, but then, industry started bringing in young couples and that was great for us and we just wish we’d get more than we do, and we also had professional people, uhh, and we got more, and we did have doctors, and the doctors were married when they went into service, they were married, most of them, and had families- the ones that went in, and we also had some lawyers, and some of them went to service and uhhm, uhh, it really, it, it, it changed Marion a lot when they came back, it really did.

18:49 pd: Can you tell me uhhm, a little more about Henry and the business when he came back?

18:55 bf: Well, then, he came back and he decided that he should, he had just started his law practice, he, after he was graduated from law school, he went to Washington and worked in the, in the government housing authority and had some interesting years, but then he decided to come back and before he even did that, I think he’d worked for a law firm in Marion, and so then when he came ba-, and then he started his own uhh just an independent practice and it was just getting started when the war started and so he, uhh, uhh, came back and decided it was silly to try to pick it up again. He would just go into the business because he felt that his parents might retire, which never happened. But, uhhm, he had thought that it was time for them, they had worked hard, and especially during the war, it was really hard because so many people were gone and, and uhh, uhhm my father in law, I know, worked very hard. But uhhm, when he got in, he really, you know, as he went through the business, he became, I don’t think it was ever what he really wanted to do and he told me many times what he really would have liked to have done would be to teach law school, but it never happened, and he, but salaries were so small during those years that, it, as professors in, in uhh, colleges, so he felt that uhh, we couldn’t have as profitable of life but I think he would have been happier, probably. He would have because he definitely was not a materialist, but he thought I wouldn’t be happy. So, we stayed in Marion and we always loved Marion. Uhhm, he did, uhh, get along well in the business and his, he had a cousin from Cincinnati who came back from the service and wasn’t into anything special so he came into the business too and together, they, uhh, branched out and we had s-, uhh, oh, what was it? Two stores in Indianapolis, one in Muncie, one in Marion, and one in Goshen. So that kept ‘em busy and uhh, uhhm, and they had good business. It worked out well, and uhh, and, you know, had a good life from it even, but Henry never stopped uhh, studying and learning and he went through the whole service during the war. Uhhm, even in foxholes, he taught himself, he was, he was studying French, or Hebrew, or something like that. He’d, and it was really funny, and many of the fellas said that he was about, he never changed even the whole war that he went through didn’t change him one bit. And, he was just, he was a very, uhhm, different person. I mean there were the, he was, you know there wasn’t,there weren’t any more cut out like him, until Alan came along, and then I think he’s, he has turned out similar in his love of study and love of music and the arts. So, uhhm, that, that was interesting, too, we didn’t have any dull moments, and uhhm, any thing else?

pd: I was just, if there’s anything, this is your story, and . . .

bf: I’m trying to think of what uhh . . .

pd: Do you want me to stop this?

bf: Uhhm, for a minute, would you?

22:05 bf: You know, Christmas time would come around, the holidays, and he, uhh, especially at the beginning, when he was still, not too far out of service, he’d get all kinds of cards from people, that uhh, that, you know from the service, that he knew, and of course most of those, of course he, in our day, when, as we were growing up, uhhm, we didn’t have a lot of Jewish friends, especially in the schools cause there just weren’t very many of us, you know, but when he went to college and went into a Jewish fraternity, and same with me, I went into a Jewish sorority, and that was the first time I really had any Jewish friends. So, that was okay, because when we came to Marion, uhhm, we were, it, it’s different cause if you grew up in a great big city, you don’t know cause you don’t have the experience, but uhh, if, if you grow up in a great big city, you gravitate toward there, there are a lot of Jewish people, and you gravitate toward the Jewish people, and you really, don’t have many social friends who aren’t Jewish. You know, I know my friends in Indianapolis that I went to school with. They’d always had nothing but Jewish friends. Well, when I came to Marion, where there were very few Jewish people, it didn’t, you know I got along, I could get along very easily with the Christian people cause I was used to it. So it was, I thought, an advantage cause a lot of these other people didn’t know how to talk to other people. They just weren’t used to it. Uhh, you know, and it’s different, it is different, they, their lives have been quite different from, from um, what uhhm, then they are when you live in a town like this. So, I’m tryin to think, see the girls that, from Indianapolis like Irma Maidenberg was from Indianapolis, Ann Ganz was from Indianapolis. They were used to a different kind of life and they never did, really, like Marion like I did cause I came to a town where there were like, there were very few Jewish people in Anderson. It was a lot bigger than Marion but there just weren’t any Jewish people, but uhh, I was used to all these other people. They weren’t. So I think I kind of fit in, I don’t know, I just, I just really was thrilled when I came to Marion. There were more Jewish people and I, that I wasn’t used to, so I got to know them, and I was used to the others, so that didn’t, you know, so everything, it, it was, it was different and I never had any desire to leave, uhhm. When you think, I, you can think of meelings, millions of things later, but if you think you’ve got enough there . . .(24:39)